Sandler Selling Philosophies

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In this episode of Selling the Sandler Way, Dave Mattson, the President and CEO of Sandler training explores the Sandler Selling Philosophies behind the Sandler Selling System with Roger Wentworth, a Sandler Trainer.

David Mattson: Today, we're talking about the Sandler philosophies behind the Sandler selling system. And, we're known for those. We're known for, "Hey, that's a great upfront contract," or "Hey, that's a monkey's paw." And, the list goes on and on, but if we peel back the onion, I look at that as the what do you say. And, often times if you're in president's club and you're staring down at the piece of paper taking notes as fast as you can have your pencil go because the trainers up front just effortlessly talking these things through. You ask yourself, "When can I be that great?"

Well, what we're going to learn today is that the words don't matter necessarily. The tactics and strategies that we're known for are fantastic, but it's really the how, the how do you say it and what do you say behind the philosophy. David Sandler, like anyone else, is shaped by his beliefs and philosophies. And, what we're going to talk about today is some of the philosophies that have shaped the Sandler selling system. And, of course, David had been shaped throughout his professional career. If you've listened to the CDs, you know a lot of the Sandler selling system originally came from a lot of rejection from using the traditional models. And so, how did he take these philosophies and create such a dynamic program called the selling system. And, that's really what we're going to talk about today.

To help us do that, we have Roger Wentworth, who's a long-time Sandler trainer who has trained thousands of sales people, worked with executives every single day. And, I think, what we're in a treat for is that Roger Wentworth has a unique way to give us the philosophies and as he lays that out to his client base; so then therefore, the tactics and the strategies make more sense because they fit into a spot. Okay, now I understand why we do that. And, that's always the best, right, when you understand the why do I do that. Oh, that's where that came from. Therefore, then, what I have found is once you understood the philosophy, you can take a tactic and strategy, which you had taught in the pain step, which you can now apply anywhere like a 30-second commercial, hypothetically.

People say, well that isn't that for prospecting? Not really. You could if you understood the philosophy, use that to start a sales call. Or, to start, a hey, we haven't met, would you like me to explain a couple minutes of what I do. So, there is a thousand ways to use that. But again, philosophy makes you understand that I could use that in a lot of different situations. And, of course, Sandler is a conversational sales model. That's the beauty of it.

So, hey welcome to the show, Roger Wentworth.

Roger Wentworth: Thank you, David.

David Mattson: So, Roger Wentworth, I know you do this all the time. You train tons of people. And, I think, of course, people come to use for the tactics, as I said. But, I think once they understand and I've heard you say this a bunch of different times at the Sandler conferences, once they understand the Sandler philosophy behind it that people get their hands around it. Fair?

Roger Wentworth: Oh, absolutely.

David Mattson: You want to set the stage for today? Because then I think maybe what we should do is take us through some of the philosophies that kind of permeate through the Sandler selling system and the seven compartments. But, maybe we should set the stage from your experience.

Roger Wentworth: Well, sure, thanks. You know this is a subject, David, that I could talk on for probably two days. There is so much behind the Sandler system and what David gave us. It just, sort of amazing kinds of stuff. A couple of things sort of overarching philosophies that we help our clients understand. And, I think, Howard in our office stated it beautifully to me many, many years ago, he said, "In traditional selling, we qualify easy, and we close hard. Sandler, of course, we qualify hard, and we close easy." And it's just 180 degree shift from what most of the world is doing.

David Mattson: And, I think that alone you can if we go through that, Roger Wentworth, it sounds so simple when you say it. It's like, of course ... But, we all know that growing up in traditional sales we do exactly like what Howard said, right? We basically do the exact opposite ... That's refreshing when you get there. It's that philosophy that kind of ... Because that alone, that philosophy right there, that we qualify hard and that we don't have to do the big close, there's no pressure because people love to buy and hate to be sold. That kind of permeates through this whole selling system.

Roger Wentworth: Yeah. It's a beautiful thing. I mean it ... we really believe and I hope everyone who is listening, if you don't at some point, you will believe that this process is not only the best for us as sales people but it's the best for our prospects as well. It's a fantastic process that is as just as good for them as it is for us. And, the other piece, if you think about this qualifying easy, close hard, qualify hard, close easy, if you think about that long enough, what you really get down to is, it's a system that lets us get to the truth.

And that is so powerful. You know when you're sitting in front of a prospective customer or client and the two of you together have figured out the real truth of the matter. What makes sense? What are the motivations? Why are we doing this? What's it worth? What's it costing? When you get to the truth, decisions become pretty darn easy on both sides of the table.

David Mattson: Why do you think people ... We're talking philosophy today. Why do you think most people shy away from that? Do they not want to hear the truth? They don't know how to get to it? They've never figured it out? Because it is so obvious to the Sandler trained people what you just said, clarity and truth and having that open discussion and people feel safe in sharing information, and you're not using it as a hammer. But, why do people do that normally?

Roger Wentworth: Well, great question, David. But, I'm going to ask ... not working you, not reversing you here.

David Mattson: Here's another philosophy (laughs).

Roger Wentworth: Here it comes. But seriously, when you are talking about people are you talking about the prospects or the sales people?

David Mattson: I think I'm talking about the sales people who don't necessarily seek the truth sometimes. And, I'll take the other side as well because I think sometimes they are being pushed into a selling system versus pulled. But, let's just do the traditional sales person before you found Sandler and the philosophies that we follow. Why isn't it intuitive to everybody to get there?

Roger Wentworth: People are afraid, unfortunately, of that truth. And many times, not to cast a dark shadow on some of our competitors out there in the world, but there is a lot of sales people in the world that have been taught never ask your prospect a question where the word 'no' might come out of their mouth.

David Mattson: I agree. That's almost like see no evil, hear no evil, right?

Roger Wentworth: There is an 800-pound gorilla in the room, and it's the person saying, "I won't be able to do this because ..." Don't dig into that, get past that, get them to say 'yes' and magically we'll get them to forget that 800-pound gorilla that's sitting on their lap.

David Mattson: I don't see it, Roger Wentworth. Do you?

Roger Wentworth: It's just crazy.

David Mattson: Yeah, it's insane.

Roger Wentworth: It's just crazy. They come into sales ... And this is deeper in the philosophy that we're going to talk about later in the call and the talk here, David, but the lack of feeling that it truly is a peer-to-peer relationship in the discussion. That's it's not ... That the sales person ... If someone is in the subservient role, it's much more difficult to explore the truth. It's like the emperor has no clothes, well subordinates weren't going to tell him he's walking' around naked.

David Mattson: Right.

Roger Wentworth: And so, this subservient role that we see sales people taking in the traditional model causes them to shy away from finding the truth. Asking those type of questions that could be perceived as above their grade, if you will. Make sense?

David Mattson: Yeah, it does. And that whole philosophy in itself, equal footing, equal stature causes you to act and react throughout the sales process and certainly different than you may with your friends and your personal life. But, the minute you get that sales hat on, and you are on a call, I have seen so many people act completely different than they would otherwise. And, I think you are right, that overarching philosophy, I think is the nightmare of most sales people who aren't aware of it throughout the whole thing.

Roger Wentworth: Oh, absolutely. For folks that have lived that or might still be living that, right, who are listening to this, it's not a fun place to be.

David Mattson: No. And, I don't even think that a lot of people know that they are quite frankly. Ignorance is bliss sometimes. I don't think they realize it as much as we look at it from the outside in, saying, "Hey, that's a real issue."

You can't have that discussion with people and qualify hard and seek the truth, as an example, if you see yourself in a subservient position with this buyer. It's a very difficult thing because one feeds off the other, right? In essence.

Roger Wentworth: And on the buyer's side, I think there is a couple of things there that cause them to sort of be reluctant to behave in a peer-to-peer or in a let's say a vulnerable manner that allows us to discover the truth. And, I think the first one, is that they are a bit by nature and have been taught over the years to be skeptical and leery of sales people. Sales people are going to take advantage of you. So, you got to play your cards close to your vest.

So, I think that's one reason that causes them layout the situation when a sales person walks into their office. And I think the second one, which maybe is not so prevalent, but I think is still there often is that, quite frankly, they themselves don't know what the truth is.

David Mattson: Yeah. I mean the buyer, you talking' about the buyer? Yeah.

Roger Wentworth: Yeah. The buyer.

David Mattson: Yeah, I think that's true lots of times. They're connecting the dots. I think if you do a good call, if you use the Sandler philosophy, you can see the light bulbs going off in the prospects eyes. Yeah, from your questions and all the things you are relating.

Roger Wentworth: It's a beautiful thing. One of our rules is ... One of the things David said years ago, your credibility is built not by the information you spew but by the questions that you ask. We talk about when you're in a sales interview -- let's use that term -- and the buyer sits back in their chair, and they look up at the ceiling and they kind of scratch their chin a little bit, and they say, "That's a good question. " Man! Who’s the expert in the room then?

David Mattson: Yeah, because they associate you with that ah-ha moment, right?

Roger Wentworth: When you ask them the question that no one else has asked them and you get them to think. Now, you're bringing something to the table that no one else has.

David Mattson: Right. So, maybe we should, if we can ... I want to take a quick break ... because I think bringing stuff to the table is a probably a good segue for us to talk about maybe some of the philosophies in each one of the categories. Because even in bonding and rapport, as an example, that is subtle philosophy that would be very nice in bonding and rapport. Because you really have established a high-level of rapport, if they're having ah-ha moments in front of you, right? That whole buyer-seller wall goes down, and they are looking at you as more of the advisor and the consultant versus the peddler.

Hey, welcome back with Roger Wentworth today. We're talking about the philosophies within the Sandler selling system that kind of shapes how we go about this unique thing called the submarine, the Sandler selling system. It really wasn't somebody sitting around in the afternoon and saying what happens after pain and oh my gosh maybe we should call that 'X.' It didn't really happen that way. There was a philosophy that was developed and lived by David Sandler, our founder, and it permeated throughout his professional career. And, it's come to now, where that philosophy has trained millions of people world-wide. And, we're not talking about tactics and strategies today like the hey, what about the softening statement before a reverse or any of that stuff. We have tons of that and you can learn that in the course.

Today, we are really talking about the philosophies that drive this interaction and drive the way that Sandler looks at the buyer-seller and looks at how we need to present ourselves and how we need to think about ourselves. All those things that you would hear as one-liners, you hear the tactic and strategies that will help substantiate and really support that philosophy.

And so, Roger Wentworth, we talked a little bit about the overarching philosophies. Maybe we can talk a little about bonding and rapport. Are there any philosophies that kind of stick out that we can talk about?

Roger Wentworth: Sure, David. There is a lot going on there as probably most of the people on the call know and understand. One of the things that we share without folks is that if you are in sales, if you are a manager managing sales people, or you are an executive who is intimately involved in the business growth, or a sales person. You should be a bit of an amateur psychologist because there is a ton of interaction going on that is beyond the spoken word and all those sorts of things. And again, president's club you learn that stuff over time.

You know, David again said, "All things being equal, people buy from people they trust. All things not being equal, like price, like delivery, like quality, like service, people buy from people they trust. And, if they don't trust us, we're done. We're done."

And so, when you think about that relationship and the difference between a first encounter with a prospective customer and a long-time customer with a great relationship over years and maybe even decades. If you think about that great relationship and you think about how much information they share with you ... How aware you are of their world and what's going on inside that organization and the challenges they have personally and those sorts of things. Wouldn't it be great, if you could create that kind of trust in the first meeting? Talk about truth flowing.

David Mattson: Right. I think if you've never been to a shrink, and I know no one listening ever has been, but if you watch it on TV ...  To your point, think about how much information is just spilled in a short amount of time because you have that credibility, you have that trust. And, by the way, we go back to the overarching one that you said they act as if that is what should happen. And they take control of that process in a very gentle and safe way. And, I think that non-judgment psychologist view point that we're talking about that really now is to create that environment of trust is great. Because that's when a tack like not okay, okay pops in where they feel comfortable sharing information, and it's not going to be used against them.

"You know, now that you say that service really is an issue."

"Service, that's one of the top 22 things that we do professionally!" All the sudden, it's like Red Alert, Red Alert, Red Alert, closing question.

Roger Wentworth: Right, elephant in the room.

David Mattson: Yeah, that is so true. It's so true. That's there. And so what about being third-party? That philosophy is about not getting emotionally involved and that kind of pokes out of being the psychologist. Because if you are the psychologist, you are not emotionally involved, and you are actually listening to what is being said versus what your next move is, which is another ripple effect of that philosophy that we teach at Sandler. That's a great philosophy because there is 1,000 little things that ripple off that one line that you used.

Roger Wentworth: Again, David, we could talk about this for days. The other piece here is sincerity. Real sincerity. One of the things when I was a Sandler client, before I got in the business I was a client, and one of the things I was taught was find a reason to like the person that you are in front of. They're good people. If you are trying to do something that's not sincere, if you are trying to give a compliment or some kind of stroke or something, and it's not real, you're not feeling it, people are more sensitive [crosstalk 00:19:46].

David Mattson: You know and they know it. You knew it giving it, and they know it receiving it.

Roger Wentworth: Right. Absolutely. It's not being a friend. At some point, we do build some friendships in this business and that's a beautify thing. I remember 20 years ago an old-timer sales guy calling on me, and I know maybe I'd done a little bit of business with him, not much. I met him two or three times, and one day, he referred to me as a close personal friend.

David Mattson: Wow, you're looking around, right?

Roger Wentworth: And, I though, really? I don't even know if you are married. I mean "close, personal friend?" It's the trusted advisor versus the friend and there is a difference there.

David Mattson: I like that one. I think that we asked people to define, it would be a bit difficult. I'm not really sure people really know the difference. But, I absolutely agree. I go back to your earlier comment. If, in fact, you had to say to yourself, do you think that came across as sincere? If you have to ask that chances are, I don't think so, right?

Roger Wentworth: No. It wasn't. One way to look at the trusted advisor piece versus the friend piece, if you have a life threatening illness, are you going to see your buddies about it or are you going to see the best doctor you can find?

You might like your buddies a whole lot better. Hey, I'm in trouble. I need the best.

David Mattson: So, that's an awesome one. Any others pop out in bonding and rapport? Because as of now, we subtly talked about seven that I kept track of, and I'm sure there's more of them.

Roger Wentworth: Well, there is but I think if we want to do a broader reach here [crosstalk 00:22:08].

David Mattson: So, what's a philosophy or two that could use on the upfront contracts?

Roger Wentworth: Well, so let's start what I would say is my definition of upfront contracts, right? Little, mini-agreements between and your prospective customer as to what is going to happen, when, whose responsible for what, and the potential outcomes. And upfront contracts, David, are huge. They are so powerful. They do things like shorten the selling cycle. Through the proper use of those things, I've seen selling cycles shrink by 80% or more. They help you test for commitment with a prospect. Are they really willing to do what we are talking about as a next step? But, one of the things that I love about upfront contracts is ... What happens to sales folks when they go out into the market place, they put their prospects up on a pedestal. And they do that because their prospects have all the money, they have all the buying authority, decision, [crosstalk 00:23:39] all the power.

If you could see me, my left hand is up in the air and my right hand is down around my waist. The waist hand is the sales person. They're below -

David Mattson: The see-saw is un-even.

Roger Wentworth: Yeah. The see-saw is uneven. It's not a level playing field. Well, guess what? It is a level playing field. You see, sales people just don't know it. Think about this. If your prospects, your customers didn't value what you are doing for them, what you are giving them, product or service, if they didn't value that more than the money they are paying, there would be no transaction. Just like if we didn't value what they are paying more than what we are providing, there would be no transaction. It is a level playing field. Sales people just don't know it, and they walk in to situations in the subservient role.

And, I'll tell you. Look, David, there is nobody better in the world than Sandler sales people.

David Mattson: True enough.

Roger Wentworth: I'll give it to you; I'm a little biased, right? But, I don't want any of our clients to look like, act like, sound like a sales person. I want them look like, act like, sound like a business person and create peer-to-peer relationships with whomever they are in front of whether it's the purchasing agent, the CEO or whoever it is. And, David, when you use upfront contracts properly and you help them understand that this is how we do with business if it makes sense for both of us, and you create that peer-to-peer relationship with a prospective customer, the world changes. Selling is different.

David Mattson: I think it is a magical moment when it happens, isn't it?

Roger Wentworth: Conversations are different. They treat you differently. When you show up, they ask you would you like some coffee, would you like some ... here come on sit down, are you comfortable. It's a whole different experience that peer-to-peer relationships. Upfront contracts done the right way, it's just fantastic what it does for the sales person.

David Mattson: I think if we go back to an earlier comment of equal footing and stature that upfront contract really sets the level playing field for whatever reason. For whatever reason, I believe that see-saw was even, and when you walk in, you automatically put more weight in and shrink. You use the unbalanced visual for a second, but I think a lot of that is self-imposed. A lot of that is going to be from the industry in general and people's preconceived ideas but the fact that you would go back and say I'm an I-10, and I have equal footing, and I have value that I am bringing to the table that I think you feel very comfortable in delivering that.

But, I also think from the buyer's side that it's the philosophy is for us to have conversation and to seek the truth that that upfront contract really sets the stage for both sides to talk openly and for both sides to figure out what that road map is. The philosophy for Sandler, which is always make sure ... People don't want to be pushed, right? They basically want to have the opportunity on both sides to say no, which is always refreshing. And, I've found that you tell people at the end of the discussion, let's try to make a decision on whether it makes sense to do X, Y, and Z ... When you start off and try to tell them what you are trying to achieve then mutually agree to it, the pressure from that buyer, you can just see disappear immediately. It is an unbelievable ... You watch that physiology. You watch how they react because now they aren't looking for what's the game, where are we heading, what's going on?

Roger Wentworth: David, how many times have you been thanked for doing that?

David Mattson: Yeah, exactly.

Roger Wentworth: When they say, "Thank you for doing that. I feel much better."

David Mattson: Yeah and that builds into those other philosophies that we've talked to. We could talk about this for days as we said. I want to take a quick break and talk about a philosophy that comes out of pain and then we'll go to budget and decision as well. I think that, Group, if you listen to these philosophies, I think the tactics and strategies you've heard of in class will come out a lot easier once you understand how we got here and how we do what we do.

We're here with Roger Wentworth. We're talking about the philosophies behind the Sandler selling system, and we've talked about over-arching philosophies. We've talked about the philosophies within bonding and rapport and within the upfront contract. The upfront contract is one of those ah-ha moments for people going through the Sandler selling system.

At the end of the day, one of those philosophies really came out of ... David really wanted to know where he was. "Where am I in the process?" And, he didn't want to figure it out; so, he thought he would throw it on the table and talk it through with people versus fantasizing, "Here's where they think I am. Do they know I'm about to close." There was always this big secret, and he said, "Why don't we just do full disclosure selling." Just put it out there because his other philosophy, which we'll get to, is that the presentation isn't going to turn the tide of the sale. The presentation or as Roger Wentworth said earlier that we qualify hard ... In order to do that, we have to put in these philosophies that we've put in thus far.

I've got to tell you that whole philosophy that we've discussed is magical. That's really how those things occurred. Let's move to pain. Roger Wentworth, I know we can talk for days and days about upfront contracts, but when it comes to pain, what's that philosophy that pops up for you?

Roger Wentworth: Again, David, what we share with our clients is that the sale is inside the prospect.

David Mattson: The sale is in-side the prospect. I see people's eyes going up. Explain that to them.

Roger Wentworth: The sales is inside the prospect. It's the pain, the compelling emotional reason, that causes them to take action. The sale is inside the prospect and it's their reasons. It's not ours. What we bring to the table as sales people is meaningless that solves the pain that's inside the prospect.

David Mattson: People always buy for their own reasons not yours, right?

Roger Wentworth: That's absolutely right. And, the ability to extract that ... And sometimes we have to help them discover it. And the other thing that we teach, the question is -- group of sales people, right -- where in the sub is the sale closed? Let me rephrase that: where in the sub does the prospect decide they want to do business with you? It's not fulfillment. It's in pain.

It's in pain where they have this feeling and logic that says I want to do business with this person in front of me. Now, we've got more qualifying to do. We still have to talk about budget; we've got to figure out how they make decisions and all that and make sure all that's fair. But, it's that pain piece.

I'll tell you a quick story. This is so funny and fascinating. One of our clients here who is a very large local organization, billion dollar plus, location locally and they brought someone in from another organization to help them build a sales team. And, we've connected with them and are helping them grow the sales force. And, this person that they brought in was responsible for training for about 800 sales people on a couple of different continents. And so, her training had been teachers and benefits. It's the logic and the ROI.

David Mattson: Here's the fab approach.

Roger Wentworth: So, when I started saying, "People make decisions emotionally and justifying them intellectually." She said, "Well, I don't. I make all my decisions logically." So, I didn't argue with her, of course. Later, we did a little exercise in pain and so very quickly I asked people to think about something you purchased in the last few months not a pack of gum but not a house. Something that was a reasonable size purchase and then tell us why you bought that. And when would record what they said. And then I had them ask that person two things, "Either tell me more or Why?" And just keep repeating, tell me more or why until you started hearing emotional responses. And this women had bought a new kitchen floor and at the end of that tell me more, why, she said, "My God, that kitchen floor represented freedom to me because I don't have to spend all my time cleaning it."

David Mattson: There you go.

Roger Wentworth: Talk about an ah-ha moment for her.

David Mattson: I was going to say we are back to another philosophy, right? That was the ah-ha moment of her, wasn't it?

Roger Wentworth: Yeah. The sale is inside the prospect.

David Mattson: That whole sales within the prospect ... We always hear stories and maybe you did that before you were Sandler trained out there was you show up and you throw up all your product knowledge, and you had an agenda for that prospect and you had a goal. This is going to happen this way and you pushed your way through it. But, if we think about some of the philosophies we've discussed so far, and we know that the sale lies within our prospect because they've go to ... You can't tell people they have pain. They have to experience it. WE are going back to the psychologist analogy, which is you're going to ask the good questions so people go through self-discovery. They never argue with their own data. If you tell them they have pain, they will deny it. If they say they have pain, it is truth.

It's kind of interesting how these all over-lap but you need all them. You can't just live with one philosophy. Although, it's nice and Sandler you could do very well with one philosophy or two. You can see as you step back how they all fit like a puzzle. They all go together.

Roger Wentworth: This is not something that you capture, internalize, and live by in a couple of days.

David Mattson: Watch a video, say, "I've got it."

Roger Wentworth: Yeah. We might have it intellectually but then when we walk out into the world and we're under the real-world pressure that goes out the window. There's a lot to it, and it takes a while to fully understand what's going on and why.

David Mattson: Well, I know this is a life-long journey. Sandler has reinforcement training. We've only gotten to pain. I know you're running off to do an executive coaching session in a second, but if you had to take a philosophy that we haven't spoken about whether it's from decision or budget or fulfillment or post-sell, what's the one that comes to your mind that we can end with today? It may not be the most important because we've covered a ton of good stuff. As you said, this is an endless conversation that we at Sandler certainly love to have because we live and breathe for this stuff. What pops to mind that we haven't talked about yet?

Roger Wentworth: Well, David, I think one of the things that a lot of sales people struggle with is in the budget compartment. This whole of concept of getting a budget, understanding what that is before you put together your proposal or your offer that sort of thing. I think people really struggle with that for a lot of reasons. There's a bunch of head trash. Mom always said don't ask people about their money. I'm too invasive and that kind of thing. But, I guess the thing that has been meaningful for our clients when we talk about the philosophy ... Again, if you buy into the stuff conceptually then you can do the technical stuff, right?

When I'm talking with people about budget, here's the question. If you really and truly ... Let's take the bid world, for instance. You are in a bid-world and you are going to put together ... There is different ways to skin the cat. In everybody's world, there's different ways to make offers work. So, the question is: if you truly understood what the money looked like for your prospect, what they were willing and able to invest to solve the pain you've uncovered. If you really knew that before you put together your offer, could you do a better job for them?

David Mattson: I don't think they've ever thought about it that way, have they?

Roger Wentworth: No, and it's 100% across the board, yes, I could. I could make it fit for them better. I could rearrange the options or the payments or the whatever it is. So, if you could do a better job for them. If you understood that upfront, why not? Why don't we? The skill set then, the techniques, the skill set is helping them to understand at the end of the day, it's in their best interest to help you understand that so you can do a better job for them. If you think about that and can believe that philosophy that you really can do a better job for them if they share that with you. It's a whole lot easier to have those conversations.

David Mattson: Yeah. Again, we are back to that philosophy of hey, it's okay to ask - equal footing, right? All these things fit in. I don't think people rationalize it that I'm doing a better job for you if I understood that and better had information in that particular topic. I think they've rationalized that over time, I think it's fear. You said it quickly and it's true, the scripting: I was never taught to talk about money at our house. I'd say, "Hey, Dad. How much did you make this year?" He'd puff, "Hey, finish your green beans. Don't worry about that you do well in school, I'll worry about the money part." All that stuff. And I'm like okay that makes a lot of sense.

And, I also think we're back to that see no evil, hear no evil, seek the truth. If we are going to seek the truth, then this is a conversation that should happen upfront not hoping that our product or service will turn the tide and they are going to be so wowed, they are going to think it is a deal. I think at some point there is a lot to that. I'm back to that the sale lives within the prospect. If you don't follow that philosophy, then the budget philosophy is a tough thing because you've already pushed your way, bullied your way through that sales process, and it hasn't been a conversation; it's been a bludgeoning. Fair?

Roger Wentworth: It's likely been a one-sided affair.

David Mattson: They bought it despite you not because of you. Many times, my wife and I will be shopping for something and she said ... We went in for specific items, whatever it was, and they did their spew, asked no questions, just threw up all their stuff, and she would say on the way out ... I mean I bought it despite them. She goes, "We didn't have any of those problems." I said, "I know but I needed it for this reason and I couldn't wait for them to get to the part that I actually wanted to hear." But, I had known that. Anyways, how often does that really happen that someone buys it despite it. I don't think so. I think most of the time, we're so in love with our product and service as sales people and we think our prospects are going to understand the slight nuances between us and our competitors. And that's not the truth.

The truth is really that they don't understand your product and service as much you do because you live and breathe it. What they are really are buying is the relationship with you. That you truly understand their issue. That you listened. There's a high level of trust and rapport and that you're going to solve the problems that they've shared with you that they may or may not have known before you got there. It's that credibility and it's that conviction on both sides of the fence that we understand and we can fix it. It's a great way to live. And, Roger Wentworth, I think at the end of the day, you would agree with the people that you've trained over the years that what we teach them in business, they transfer to their personal life. And it really has the same impact on both sides of the fence, doesn't it?

Roger Wentworth: You betcha. Have that conversation all of the time.

David Mattson: Hey listen, we've covered tons of stuff today. I appreciate your coming on and sharing those philosophies, and hopefully, it will start connecting the dots with those people to there. So, I really do appreciate it.

Roger Wentworth: Thanks for having me. We love this stuff. We're passionate about it, and just enjoyed the discussion. So, thank you for having me.

David Mattson: Thank you. So, listen Group, we were with Roger Wentworth today. If you really sit back and think about it, you can read David Sandler's book or the 49 rules and really think this is the philosophy. Sandler has tons of rules and those rules are the philosophies that we talked about here today because those are the one-liners that everything else makes sense with. We've talked about a ton of them today. We didn't get to talk about all seven compartments. But, it's really not necessary because the things we talked about today permeate through-out all of those compartments of the selling system.

But, really the ones that popped up is, hey be that psychologist and seek the truth and have equal footing. If you could just grab onto those, that would help you in prospecting; it would help you in account management. It would help you in account development and acquisition. It's endless and the ripple effect that would have with you. Really, the way you would carry yourself in front of a buyer would change dramatically if you believed what was talked about today when it comes to just maybe those philosophies. Because at the end of the day, we can teach you tactics and strategies all day long. And here's when you know when you are focused on a tactic or a philosophy, either you say to yourself, "What did you say again? What were the words?" You say to yourself, "I could never do that."

Well, if you could never do that then you don't either, A, understand the philosophy or buy into it because the tactic doesn't matter. The tactic is nothing more than a mirror reflection of the implementation of a philosophy. That's really what we are really trying to share with you today. So go out and try a couple. Until next time, good selling.                                                     

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